if you look at detroit and consider all of the things that went wrong, for me it just starts with our relationship with that which we make, our relationship with making things, you know. we're just missing the headline in the conversation over and over and over. >> if you had a piece of advise you could give to the president and to congress, what would you tell them? >> look, first of all, i'm not an expert, never want to put myself out there as one. i would say the reality of the situation right now, vis-a-vis alternative education, we have to make a case for the trades. we have to start with an awareness, a campaign, a public relations campaign that challenges perceptions and stigmas. 3 million shovel ready jobs from four or five years ago is a great idea, i had a dirty jobber tell me when that was announced, look, that will be a tough sell. you're talking to a country that no longer has a relationship with a shovel. you have to start at the beginning. so i would say let's maybe step back a little bit, have a broader conversation. i would say $1 trillion in student loans is no joke.